The Congressional Globe, Volume 13, Part 1: Twenty-Eighth Congress, First Session Page: 25
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CONGRESSIONAL GLOBE.
M,
yet, by this ridiculous proceeding, all this_ cumber-
some and extraneous matter"must be copied out at
length. Why, on the same principle, you might get
the Old Testament copied on the journal, though not
a single member voted for it. Let the facts, then,
stand as they occurred, and as proposed in the
motion of the gentleman from Maine—namely,
that the gentleman from New York offered a pa-
per to the House, which was neither received nor
read. Not a single member of the House would say
that this protest made part of the proceedings of
Monday, and yet the gentleman wished to have it
spread upon the journal. What did he care for that
paper? It was an argument, to be sure, against his
right to his seat; but he could draw up an answer to
it, and get it inserted on the journal, if this protest
should be permitted to remain there; but he had no
■wish to cumber the journal by such irrelevant mat-
ter. His principal objection to the proceeding
was this: by the act of the last Congress, the
States were required to do a certain thing, and
they did not do it; yet it was now proposed to have
it stated on the journals that these States had perpe-
trated a legal fraud in sending members here in vio-
lation of a law of Congress. It was the reflection
cast upon these States, and not upon himself, that he
objected to. He cared nothing for the reflection
upon himself. He came here in pursuance of the
laws of his State, and with an acknowledged major-
ity of all the legal voters of his district. No man
denied it. Then, if the journal should state that he
came here and participated in the election of Speak-
er, without having a right to do so, it would be a
reflection, not on him, but on the State which sent
him here. Gentlemen who now so pertinaciously
persisted in their endeavors to spread this protest on
the journal, saw the time when they pursued an op-
posite course. He would remind them that, in the
case of the President's protest, they were anxious
that it should not go on the journal; and, so effectual
were their objections made, that the gentleman from
Virginia [Mr. Wise] was obliged to withdraw it.
So, also, in the case of Mr. Bowne of New York,
who wanted certain facts to appear on the journal
before the adjournment, and it was determined that
they should not go 011. As to the Clerk's making a
perfect journal of the proceedings of the House, he
could say, that when he states all the facts that oc-
curred, and nothing else, then his journal is perfect.
In conclusion, he repeated that now was the
proper time, when the attention of the House was
called to it, to establish the rule that no member, by
indirection, should be permitted to cumber the jour-
nals with matter that the House decided should not
go oil it. _
Mr. HOLMES considered it wholly immaterial
whether that protest went on the journal or not; but
it was material to the majority and minority whether
the amendment of the gentleman from Maine was
adopted. He had never known a proposition which,
if adopted, would involve more serious conse-
quences; and he warned gentlemen in the majority,
however anxious they might be to keep this mat-
ter from the journals, not to sefPh precedent that
might be used with serious effect against them when
another party might have the majority in that
House. What was the proposition of the gentle-
man from Maine? Why, it was to instruct the
Clerk to keep a certain paper off the journal, when
the rule prescribed that it should go there, and
another rule prescribed that it should not be al-
tered but by a vote of two-thirds. Suppose the ta-
bles changed, and another party should have the
majority 011 that floor—for there was 110 danger
from the present majoiity, the enlarged views and
liberal principles of the Democracy being a suffi-
cient guaranty that they would not abuse the power
they were m possession of; bat suppose the
Whig party should get the upper hand, and it
might be that the people mistaking their interests
should return a majority of them to the House:
what would be the consequence ? Why, while
the W higs were driving the car of Juggernaut under
a high steam pressure, some gentleman might have
independence enough to offer a resolution, showing
to the world the tyranny of their conduct; and upon
this, a resolution might be offered by a Whig mem-
ber that nothing censuring the majority should go
upon the journal. By this means (said Mr. H.)
we may be deprived of the power of showing to
the country that their conduct is subversive of the
interests of the nation. Now it was to guard in
advance against this danger, that he raised his voice
against the motion of the gentleman from Maine. .
Mr. WELLER observed that it appeared to him
that this debate had gone far enough, and that it
was time it should cease. For the purpose, there-
fore, of ascertaining the wish of the House in this
particular, he moved the previous question. Mr.
W., at the request of Mr. C. J. Ikgersoll, withdrew
the motion.
Mr. C. J. INGERSOLL then moved to lay the
whole subject on the table. He believed this was a
very important constitutional question, and did not
think it ought to be decided in this way. The whole
subject should be thrown open to debate, and de-
cided once for all.
Mr. COBB asked what would be the effect of lay-
ing the whole subject on the table; would the protest
remain on the journal?
The SPEAKER replied that it would.
The question was then put by yeas and nays on
Mr. Ingersoll's motion, and decided in the ne*>
tive: yeas 83, nays 95, as follows:
YEAS.—Messrs. Adams, Atkinson, Barringer, Beardsley,
Benton, Jas. A. Black, Brodhead, A. V. Brown, Buffington,
Burt,Caldwell, Campbell, Ciingman, Clinton, Coles, Cuilom,
Dana, Daniel, Garret Davis, Richard D. Davis, Dean, Deber-
ry, Dickey, Elmer, Farlee, Foster, Frick, Giddings, Gilmer,
Willis Green, B. Green, Grider, Hayes, Holmes, Hubard,
Hungeriord, James B Hunt, Charles J. lngersoll, Irvm,
Jenks, Cave Johnson, Periey B. Johnson, Andrew Johnson,
Jones, Kennedy, Kirkpatrick, McCausien, McDowell, Mcll-
vaine, Edward J. Morris, Joseph Morris, Owen, Parmenter,
Pettit, Peyton, Phcenix, Emery D. Potter, Ramsey, Rathbun,
Charles M. Reed David S. Reid, Robinson, Rogers, Sam-
ple, Senter, Severance, David L. Seymour, Thomas Smith,
Stephens, Stetson, J. Stewart, Stone, Strong, Sykes, Thorn-
asson, Thompson, Tilden, Vanmeter, Vinton, "White, W'il-
kins, Wise, and Yost—S3
NAYS—Messrs. Ashe, Barnard, Belser, Bidlack, James
Black, Blackwell, Bossier, Bower, Bowlin, Boyd, J. Brinker-
hoft', Milton Brown, William J. Brown, Jeremiah Brown,
Burke, Carroll, Cat]in, Augustus A. Chapmrn, Chappell,
Chilton, Cobb, Collamer, Cranston, Cross, Dellet, Dick
inson, Duglass, Dromgoole, Dunlap, Ficklin, Fibh,
Florence, Foot, French, Grinnell, Hale, Hamlin, Haralson,
Hardin, Harper. Herrick, Hoge, Hopkins, Houston, Hubbell,
Hudson, Hughes, Washington Hunt, Joseph R. Ingersoll,
Jameson, Preston King, Daniel P. King, Leonard, Lucas,
Lumpkin, McClellan, McClernand, McKay, Matthews,
Moore, Moseley, Murphy, Nes, Newton, Norris, Patterson,
Payne, Purdy, Rayner, Reding, Relfe, Ritter, Russell, St.
John, Schenck, T. H. Seymour, Simmons, Simpson, Slidell,
Albert Smith, John T. Smith, Robert Smith, Steenrod,
Stiles, Taylor, Tibbatts Tyler, Vance, Weller, Wentworth,
Williams, Winthrop, Woodward, William Wright, and Jos.
A. Wright—95.
After a few words from Mr. HOPKINS and Mr.
DROMGOOLE—
Mr. WISE said the resolution contemplated "a
House;" but there was no House, nor the beginning
of a House, when the gentleman from New York
[Mr. Barnard] presented the protest which had
given rise to this debate; and he therefore hoped
the mover of the resolution would so modify it as to
make it conformable with the fact. The resolution
stated that by implication, which was not true in
fact; the "House" was not asked to receive the pro-
test as affirmed in the resolution, nor was the Clerk
asked to put any question thereon to "the House."
He therefore again asked the mover to modify his
resolution.
Mr. BARNARD made some remark which was
inaudible at the reporter's desk.
Mr. WISE obtained the withdrawal of the motion
for the previous question, that he might explain him-
self; and he said he could assure the gentleman from
New York that he understood himself, and he un-
derstood that gentleman too. The gentleman from
New York had moved to amend the journal of the
proceedings of the House (if Representatives by in-
serting matter which he moved before there was a
House. There was the peculiar error on this whole
subject. The gentleman asked no leave of the
House; he offered to read no paper to this House;
but, before the body was a House, before it was
organized, before the members were sworn, before
they were in a condition to judge of the election of
members—for they dared not judge until" they were
sworn to support the Constitution of the 'United
States as members of that House—he offered to an
unorganized, and consequently unauthorized, body,
a resolution.
Mr. BARNARD asked the gentleman from Vir-
ginia to allow him to read a clause from the Consti-
tution. He did not wish now to argue the matter,
but to call the attention of the gentleman to the fol-
lowing passage:
"The House of Representatives shall choose their
Speaker."
Mr. WISE said the House was "a House" as
soon as it was a sworn body.
Mr. BARNARD replied that the House was
never sworn until it elected its Speaker.
Mr. WISE said the House existed for all the pur-
poses of organization, and appointment of a Speaker,
but for no other purpose; and yet would the gentle-
man from New York [Mr Barnard] contend that
it was a House to judge of the qualifications arid of
the returns of members before it was sworn? He
agreed with the gentleman from New York that the
record of this paper was a harmless thing, just as
harmless as uncle Toby's fly, (laughter;) but it was
no part of the proceedings of this House. There
were gentlemen from four States who came with cer-
tificates of election. Some of those gentlemen canie
from New Hampshire; and when their names were
called, the gentleman from South Carolina [Mr.
Campbeil] arose, and though he (Mr. Wis®) dif-
fered from that gentleman, he would do him the jus-
tice to say, that he took the proper step, for he en-
deavored to ascertain the fact how the gentleman
from New Hampshire were elected.
[Here a message was received from the Senate
by the hands of Asbury Dickins, esq., its Secre-
tary, informing the House of Representatives that
the Senate had concurred with a resolution for the
appointment of a chaplain, and that that body had
appointed a chaplain in pursuance thereof. AlsO)
that the Senate had appointed its members on the
joint Committee on the Library, and on Enrolled
Bills.]
Mr. WISE repeated that the gentleman from
South Carolina inquired how the gentlemen from
New Hampshire were elected, and the gentlemen
from New Hampshire very properly sat still and
left the gentleman from South Carolina to find it
out from the Clerk, to whom the Governor of New
Hampshire had made a "communication. He (Mr.
Wise,) held that communication in his hand, and
he would ask the gentleman from New York to look
at its "broad seal." And what did it certify? "To
all to whom it may concern: be it known, Johh P.
Hale. Esq. has been duly elected a representative
of the State of New Hampshire, in the Congress of
the United States, for the term of two years from the
4th day of March last. In testimony whereof, I have
caused the seal of said State to be hereunto affixed.
Henry Hubbard, Governor ef the State of New
Hampshire, dated the 20th day of May, 1843, and
of the independence of the United States, the etth."
- The certificate was also countersigned by the
Secretary of State of New Hampshire. That docu-
ment certified to him that John P. Hale had been
" duly electedand what more did his own certifi-
cate certify ? The broad seal of New Hampshire,
then, was as much the credential of John P. Hale as
the broad seal of Virginia was a credential that, he
(Mr. Wise) had been duly elected; and the gentle-
men from Hampshire who came here with such cer-
tificates, were prima facia as much members of that
House as he was; and would remain so until the
contrary was proved. The gentleman from South
Carolina, failing to get proof contradicting the broad
seal of New Hampshire, took his seat, and waits for
the proper moment. After this, the gentlemen from
New Hampshire were called and sworn, under th
sanction of their certificates; they were sworn before
either he (Mr. Wise) or the gentleman from New
York was sworn: and yet the gentleman from New
York asked him (Mr. Wise) to allow him to protest
against the proceedings which occurred before either
of them was a member, further than to elect a
Speaker and a Clerk, and to organize. Now, his
answer was, Wait until I have ascertained how
those gentlemen have been elected; wait until I can
compare the lnw with the Constitution under which
they have been elected. The broad -seal of New
Hampshire admitted those gentlemen to their seats,
and not he. The precept, and the example too, of
the gentleman from New York, in the New Jersey
case, would admit those gentlemen, without any
proceediug 011 his (Mr.wise's) part whatever. The
House had never yet been called upon to say
whether John P. Hale had been duly elected. If the
Election Committee had made their report, and the
House was ready to \ ote upon that report, the prop-
er time would have arrived for the gentleman from
New York to have presented his protest, and
to ask to have it entered upon the journal; but
it was not the proper time, when the House
was in its initiatory proceeding; nor should the gen-
tleman from New York then ask him, or any other
gentleman, to decide that question. Why, if this
protest were admissible, n protest might be entered
against his colleague [Mr. Gilmer] being allowed
to take his seat; fur that seat was contested. He
(Mr. W.) then again said that, until he had investi-
gated the matter judicially—until it came before
them from a Committee of Elections—he should
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United States. Congress. The Congressional Globe, Volume 13, Part 1: Twenty-Eighth Congress, First Session, book, 1844; Washington D.C.. (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth2367/m1/49/: accessed April 17, 2024), University of North Texas Libraries, The Portal to Texas History, https://texashistory.unt.edu; crediting UNT Libraries Government Documents Department.